ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:
America is losing its status as the global leader in science and innovation. That's according to the former president of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or MIT. He lays out the stakes in a recent piece in Foreign Affairs. China is moving ahead, he writes. If the United States fails to correct course, it risks ceding the future to its greatest geopolitical rival. L. Rafael Reif is an engineer who led MIT from 2012 to 2022. He's now a professor of electrical engineering and computer science there. Welcome.
L RAFAEL REIF: Thank you for having me.
SCHMITZ: So Dr. Reif, while you were president of MIT, I was in China reporting on its economy, and back in the 2010s, there was this wow factor when outsiders analyzed China's science and tech innovation. The country's massive scale had quantity. But when you did a little digging, oftentimes the quality was not that impressive. But in recent years, those of us watching China have noticed a rapid uptick in quality, and you wrote this piece about that. Tell us about that.
REIF: Well, I mean, this is a trajectory that China has been after for a while, and it has been succeeded impressively. I mean, I think back in 2015, I think it was, they realized that they are great at manufacturing, at manufacturing low-cost products, but they wanted to move up the food chain. And they realized that to do that, they have to develop technologies and focus on science and advanced science. So they have a 2025 plan or made in China by 2025 or something along those lines - and boy, they have done a terrific job at it, and this is where we are right now.
SCHMITZ: And, you know, you write about China's electric vehicles, nuclear energy, even war technologies as places where China is edging out the United States. What can the U.S. learn from this?
REIF: Well, the U.S. should learn what China learned from us. They had a low-cost manufacturing economy, and they wanted to improve the situation and have more high-value added products. And they realized that to do that, well, they have to develop their own organic technology and they have to advance science. So they invested heavily on that - on science research, on advancing science and on advancing and developing technology. The manufacturing - they have it down pat. They were just weak on the early part of the story and in creating new knowledge. Well, they did that. They decided to do that, and they have done extremely well.
SCHMITZ: So I just had a chance to see the Trump administration's budget proposal for the coming year. It is slashing budgets for all of the science-related agencies, federal agencies like NASA. We're talking EPA, et cetera, et cetera. So obviously, this doesn't seem to be a priority for the current administration. What do you think needs to be done outside of what the government is doing?
REIF: Well, let me just be clear on one point. It is true that that is not a priority for the White House and for the government. But the government had the same kind of budget cut for research a year ago, and Congress put those budget cuts back, so it didn't proceed in that direction. So at least we have Congress with the eyes open realizing the situation. My point on that is that it's not enough to just - to keep things the way they are. When the Soviet Union had Sputnik, the whole country realized that, oops, you know, they are jumping ahead of us. We were surprised by that, and we invested heavily on science to catch up, and we did in advance. Right now, it's not sufficient to just keep treading water. We just have to respond to that challenge that China's heading by investing more on science.
SCHMITZ: So let's talk about artificial intelligence. You know, China has not yet managed to produce the world's best semiconductors to power the most advanced AI platforms. U.S. companies still have the edge there. But how long will it be before China catches up in that field?
REIF: So on the architecture space, on coming up with the ChatGPT, America is very, very strong. On designing those GPUs, those chips that really power the architecture, America is very strong. But when it comes to fabricating, manufacturing those things, America is not that strong.
We actually manufacture our chips in a company that is in Taiwan, very close to the front - the border with China. The equipment that that company, TSMC, uses in Taiwan - much of it comes from America, but much of it comes from Japan. And also there is a critical component, a company in the Netherlands that produces a very critical equipment that is necessary.
What you see is that in this ecosystem, America cannot work alone. America actually needs Taiwan. America needs the Netherlands. America needs Japan to be the dominant country in the world in this space. And I think that's a formula we have to maintain and keep using.
SCHMITZ: I wanted to get to that because I feel like the best science - in the past, at least - has depended on collaboration across international borders, the ones like you just mentioned. With globalism on the decline, how do you think that will impact China's edge in innovation? How might it impact how they operate?
REIF: Because of all those geopolitical tensions, China is trying to have everything organically developed. They want to develop all the technologies themselves. This conglomerate that I mentioned, this association of having American companies and Taiwanese companies and Japanese companies and European companies working together, China is trying to do all that by themselves. They have the...
SCHMITZ: Can they? Can they do that?
REIF: They have done miracles. Look, let's remember that population of China is four times that of the U.S.
SCHMITZ: Right.
REIF: We may have very smart people here, and we attract very smart people as well. We have to keep attracting them because without them, we cannot compete with China. But China has the resources, has the willpower, has the focus.
SCHMITZ: If you could advise President Trump on what he could do to improve this space, what would it be?
REIF: Three things - first, invest in basic research in the country, not treat universities as adversaries or enemies, as some of them talk about - as partners. We are here to help the country.
No. 2, stop attacking immigrants. This country needs them. And No. 3, just figure out a way so that the innovative ideas coming out of our labs don't end up in another country like China, that we develop them here by giving them a longer runway for them to materialize and make an impact.
SCHMITZ: That is L. Rafael Reif. He is the former president of MIT. You can find his piece, "America Is Losing The Innovation Race," in Foreign Affairs. Thank you so much for joining us.
REIF: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
