SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Few lines of movie dialogue are as memorable as these.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHEN HARRY MET SALLY")
BILLY CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) Men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
MEG RYAN: (As Sally Albright) That's not true. I have a number of men friends, and there is no sex involved.
CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) No, you don't.
RYAN: (As Sally Albright) Yes, I do.
CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) No, you don't.
RYAN: (As Sally Albright) Yes, I do.
CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) You only think you do.
DETROW: That is from 1989's "When Harry Met Sally," the film most people associate with Nora Ephron. Nora Ephron did many things over the course of her career, among them, setting the standard for the modern romantic comedy. "When Harry Met Sally" is just one entry in a holy trinity of sorts of rom-com, along with "Sleepless In Seattle" and "You've Got Mail."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "YOU'VE GOT MAIL")
RYAN: (As Kathleen Kelly) Do you still want to meet me?
TOM HANKS: (As Joe Fox) I would love to meet you. Where? When?
DETROW: Look, these movies are so good.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SLEEPLESS IN SEATTLE")
RYAN: (As Annie Reed) There's someone I was supposed to meet. He's probably not there, but if I don't at least look, I'll always wonder about it.
DETROW: For this week's look at the movies, we are going to talk about Nora Ephron, and we are going to talk about Nora Ephron with - I'll just say it - a collection of dudes who like Nora Ephron movies.
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers is here as always. Hi, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey there, Scott.
DETROW: And we've got NPR correspondent Miles Parks. Usually when Miles is on the show, we're talking about very serious issues like voting and election security.
RIVERS: This is more important.
DETROW: This is also an important issue.
MILES PARKS, BYLINE: It is an honor to be here, Scott, honestly.
DETROW: We're just going to bro-out on Nora Ephron for the next 10 minutes, if that works for everybody.
RIVERS: I'm cool with that.
DETROW: I need to set the stage here. Miles, can you explain to listeners the romantic comedy bracket you and your wife put together a couple of years ago, which is the reason why you've been invited to this segment.
PARKS: Right, why I'm considered an expert in this genre.
DETROW: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
PARKS: So a couple of years ago - my wife had casually mentioned when we first met that she always had this dream of, like, having a party or doing something where she kind of, like, pitted rom-coms against each other to kind of create the greatest rom-com or figure out what the greatest rom-com of all time was. So as a surprise for her birthday a couple years ago, I created a 64-movie bracket, got it printed out on a large poster board, got a group of, like, 45 of our family and friends together, and then over the course of a month, we voted, like, the same way you would through a March Madness tournament...
DETROW: Yeah.
PARKS: ...Twice a week and basically got down - we had a group chat. People were screaming at me. I mean, people accused me of rigging the vote. And then at the end of the month, the final, I will just - spoiler alert - say it got down to "When Harry Met Sally" versus "You've Got Mail."
DETROW: Wow.
RIVERS: Wow, Ephron versus Ephron.
PARKS: Yeah, exactly. So I think that sets the stage for what we're talking about today. It's honestly my finest work as a husband. I'm not going to lie.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
DETROW: We can reveal the winner later on. Both of you - but Marc, let me go to you. Like, what to you sticks out about the movies she's produced? Why do they spring to the top? Is it the writing? Is it the feel? Is it the Meg Ryan-Tom Hankness (ph)?
RIVERS: It is all of those things. You know, I think I first encountered Nora Ephron in high school when I was really getting into film, and I was watching all the classic kind of (inaudible) films. And I knew that "When Harry Met Sally" was a classic. At the time, I was thinking, well, you know, this is a good movie, but it's not serious. I need to be - when I think about the great movies, I had to be thinking about "The Godfather," or whatever.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: But over the years, I've returned to "When Harry Met Sally" more than all of those other movies.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: And I think what's so special about Nora Ephron's work, especially "When Harry Met Sally" in particular, is that when you watch it, it's like returning to old friends. I think only really special movies feel like the characters have lives outside of the film. Like, when the movie ends, they're still bickering and arguing and...
DETROW: Right.
RIVERS: ...Joking, even when the movie's over. And I think Ephron is just really great at making characters like that where they're like your buddies. They're like friends, and you hope they're OK.
DETROW: What about you, Miles?
PARKS: I think the romance gets the headline of these movies, but actually the thing that puts them above all the other rom-coms to me that have been made since, basically, is the fact that they are hysterical. When I watched them as adults, I was surprised at how often I laughed out loud. I mean, you could make an argument "Sleepless In Seattle" - it's a rom-com in the sense that Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks end up together at the end.
DETROW: Yeah.
PARKS: But it's actually really more of a buddy comedy between Tom Hanks and his 8-year-old kid.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SLEEPLESS IN SEATTLE")
ROSS MALINGER: (As Jonah Baldwin) Why can't we go to New York?
HANKS: (As Sam Baldwin) There is no way that we are going on a plane to meet some woman who could be a crazy, sick lunatic. Didn't you see "Fatal Attraction"?
MALINGER: (As Jonah Baldwin) You wouldn't let me.
HANKS: (As Sam Baldwin) Well, I saw it.
PARKS: Basically just having this amazing witty banter throughout this entire movie.
RIVERS: I honestly could have used less of the son.
DETROW: Woah.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
PARKS: No way. Oh, my god, that's brutal.
RIVERS: I did not need so much of the son.
PARKS: I disagree so vehemently.
RIVERS: He is the reason for the best scene in that movie, but I wanted more Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks, not Tom Hanks and this kid.
DETROW: Wow.
RIVERS: Sorry. Sorry to y'all. Sorry to the fans.
DETROW: I don't have much to add other than, like, there is a comforting feeling of it. Like, I was thinking about kind of specific moments. And a couple years ago, for the 20th anniversary of 9/11, I reported out this hour-long documentary. It was this very intense process, obviously a very emotional subject. On September 11, they had me covering the memorial in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. And at the end of the day, I was so drained from, like, four months of all of this and just, like, the intensity of that day. And I just remember coming back to my hotel room and collapsing and watching "Sleepless In Seattle." And it was just this perfect way to just kind of, like, push all of the bad things out and just, like, kind of hang out with these people, like the Rosie O'Donnell character of the Baltimore Sun...
PARKS: Oh, my gosh.
DETROW: ...Like, great subplot character, who just talk in a smart, funny way that make you feel good.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SLEEPLESS IN SEATTLE")
ROSIE O'DONNELL: (As Becky) Sleepless in Seattle?
RYAN: (As Annie Reed) That's what she called him on the show because he can't sleep.
O'DONNELL: (As Becky) And now 2,000 women want his number. The guy could be a crackhead.
PARKS: I do think, also - like, think about why these movies rise above the other ones, to your Rosie O'Donnell point, is the ancillary characters are so good too, and a lot of the most memorable moments in these movies are actually characters where the main characters are interacting with their friends.
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
PARKS: You're obviously not a big fan of the 8-year-old son.
RIVERS: Yeah.
PARKS: But think about...
RIVERS: He's low on the (inaudible). I mean, we got Bruno Kirby...
PARKS: Exactly.
RIVERS: ...Carrie Fisher in "When Harry Met Sally."
PARKS: And what is the most - to me, the most memorable - maybe the most memorable scene in "When Harry Met Sally" is when Billy Crystal and Bruno Kirby are at the stadium.
RIVERS: Yeah, yeah.
PARKS: And they're talking about the divorce...
RIVERS: The wave.
PARKS: ...And then they're doing the wave at the same time, right?
RIVERS: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHEN HARRY MET SALLY")
CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) So I say to her, don't you love me anymore? You know what she says? I don't know if I've ever loved you.
BRUNO KIRBY: (As Jess) Ooh, that's harsh.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters) Woah.
KIRBY: (As Jess) You don't bounce back from that right away.
CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) Thanks, Jess.
PARKS: There are all these...
RIVERS: So good.
PARKS: ...Moments with that - oh, don't involve the specific romance but that are still so important to the movie.
DETROW: So we're talking about the writing. With Nora Ephron, that's obviously important. I think, like, with "When Harry Met Sally," there's, like, the use of the physical location as part of the story and a character.
RIVERS: It's a great - I mean, it's a great New York movie.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: You know, like, I think, you know, you're talking about romance and how you get so much out of the comedy, but, like - and it's - but it's not just a romance about people. It's a romance about the cities that they're in. It's a romance about the movies. I think that's another kind of connection I made with Nora Ephron, is this woman clearly loves the movies. You know, it's like, "Sleepless In Seattle" was kind of - was inspired by "An Affair To Remember" with Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr. There's a scene where Rosie O'Donnell and Meg Ryan are watching that movie.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SLEEPLESS IN SEATTLE")
RYAN: (As Annie Reed) Now, those were the days when people knew how to be in love.
O'DONNELL: (As Becky) You're a basket case.
RYAN: (As Annie Reed) They knew it. Time, distance, nothing could separate them because they knew it was right. It was real. It was...
O'DONNELL: (As Becky) A movie.
RIVERS: "You've Got Mail" is a remake of "The Shop Around The Corner" from the '40s. If you remember in the movie, Meg Ryan's bookshop was called The Shop Around the Corner.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: "When Harry Met Sally" at the time was kind of seen as like, Woody Allen-lite (ph)? And, you know, if you look up old reviews of it like Siskel and Ebert, they'll talk about how, yeah, this doesn't really measure up.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SISKEL & EBERT")
GENE SISKEL: ...Comedy. And "When Harry Met Sally," while it's not in the same class as "Annie Hall," the film does have some cute moments and a touching...
RIVERS: And we should note that, you know, Rob Reiner was the one who actually directed "When Harry Met Sally." Nora Ephron just wrote the script. But I think it's interesting that Ephron has now become the kind of gold standard (laughter), you know? Like...
DETROW: Yeah, yeah, yeah - for a variety of reasons.
RIVERS: For a variety of reasons.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: But yeah, it's a romance. It's a romance about people. It's a romance about the city. It's a romance about the movies. And I think that is - that's what also makes it endearing.
DETROW: And I think the other important thing is just, like, the casting because this obviously creates the iconic Meg Ryan, Tom Hanks connection.
RIVERS: Well, I mean, what's wild about that is we - I mean, there were only - what? - three - I mean, two of - Nora Ephron movies with two of them.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: We should have had 10 more. You know, we...
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: Like, the fact that we didn't get more is just one of the great injustices, to me, of modern movies.
DETROW: I have to make a negative point here, though. And Miles, this is something we've talked about. We have to just say it - that as good as the movie is, as feel-good as it is...
RIVERS: "You've Got Mail."
DETROW: ...Tom Hanks' character sucks in "You've Got Mail."
PARKS: Oh, preach. I was so excited.
DETROW: He sucks. He sucks.
PARKS: This is, like, the thing that comes up, and especially when I was doing that rom-com challenge. But...
RIVERS: It's the worst character he's ever played, and he's played, like, a murdering gangster before.
PARKS: I don't - exactly. And I don't - I just don't understand the writing of it. It never tries...
RIVERS: I don't think the movie knows how awful he is.
PARKS: Yeah (laughter).
DETROW: You know, like, the whole - 'cause I think, like, that one iconic slash horrible mansplainy scene when he's on his houseboat emailing, mansplaining "The Godfather."
RIVERS: (Laughter) Yeah, yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "YOU'VE GOT MAIL")
HANKS: (As Joe Fox) The Godfather is the "I Ching." "The Godfather" is the sum of all wisdom. "The Godfather" is the answer to any question.
DETROW: And, like, I think it's like, oh, what a charming scene. But you're like, ugh, like...
RIVERS: It's so cringe.
DETROW: ...You know that person, and you don't want to talk to them about "The Godfather."
RIVERS: You don't want to be friends with that person. He also represents - he's Big Book. You know, you don't want to be friends with Big Book.
PARKS: No, that's what I was going to say (ph). There's very few things that have changed more in the last 30 years since that movie came out than our views about corporations, right?
RIVERS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
PARKS: And I do feel like that sense of, like, it just doesn't make sense to me how Meg Ryan forgives him so quickly without any action on his part.
RIVERS: It's totally illogical.
PARKS: I don't...
DETROW: Yeah.
PARKS: It's the only flaw in an otherwise perfect movie.
DETROW: All right. We could do this conversation for another 20 minutes. Unfortunately, I'm told we have to cover other news today.
RIVERS: Ugh, other news?
DETROW: Miles, who won the bracket?
PARKS: "When Harry Met Sally" won the bracket, but I'm honestly not sure how biased it was 'cause it's my wife's favorite movie. And so people may have been voting at the very end to make her happy.
RIVERS: So you're saying the election was - you're saying, like, it was rigged (ph).
PARKS: I think it was rigged (ph).
DETROW: Election reporter Miles Parks...
RIVERS: Rigs the bracket.
PARKS: People have other reasons for voting than just the movie's quality, though I would also argue that "When Harry Met Sally" is the superior film.
RIVERS: I think it's one of the great American movies.
DETROW: Well, Marc, Miles, when you realize you want to spend the rest of your life doing movie segments with two guests, you want the rest of your life to start as quickly as possible.
RIVERS: You say things like that, Scott, it makes it impossible for me to hate you.
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: Thank you to you both.
PARKS: Thanks, Scott.
RIVERS: You're welcome.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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